【解释鸿沟】第7集：旅行人信札 | Explanatory Gap | 腾讯视频 – 纪录片
[This subtitle is an AI translation.] 哈哈哈 哈哈 饿吧 在飞机上我承认没有经受住考验 我还是吃了冰激凌 哈哈哈 飞机经过了13个小时 时间是增加了 那以前要走俄国就近了 啊对 又回到我第一次出国的时候 宋怀凡姐也是一战场 是啊 转变我觉得还是比主要 浪费 这实际上就是 呃 全球化 就是到那个时候达到了巅峰 从那以后就世界的喧嚣逐渐呈现 哎呀 都还是老样子啊 哈哈对啊 这都是老店 整整35年前 老师送他太太到奥斯陆去 那今天就成了那个西地图OK 反正贝尔跟他等于是散播的好地方 散播的好地方 嗯 你看像这种啊 都是我生命当中看到的 第一次看到的大商场啊 哈哈哈 上海那个时候还没有超市嘛 八八八年 所以这地方你们很熟悉喽 对那通讯大概比我要熟很多啊 因为我虽然在这呆了三个月 但是你可能比我熟悉 你还你还会开车你会 但是我儿子成天在家读书 不像你到处溜达 我在读书 你在玩 哈哈哈哈 这个是以前没有的 这没有的 记得吗 我我绝对有 那那那我这鸡还是80年代的鸡啊 这这这家对那个90年代 我陪老师到北京饿肚子了 我就说哎这麦当劳不是蛮好 嗯 他说他老婆知道的话要杀了他 对对哈哈哈 这我到美国去留学他知道 对对对我知道 你对这个什么家里放电视 对对对什么吃麦当劳 特别鄙视 对 我们 以前看到那种活沙的 这种都没了嗯 这个可能也是animal rights moment 啊哈哈哈 啊说说说 让他迅速死亡 没有痛苦 那个 那书记animal rise那个风格你认识吗 我带了本书 我不认识 风格这种 当然了政治上绝对正确 这没这么说的 啊 对但是关于这个animal rise这个概念 我个人是不接受 哈哈哈哈 嗯对 嗯对对用lights这样的 对对对我觉得这都你可以是走extension 对要夸张点说呢 我就觉得现在就是有点 都太往那个方向走了 对啊 他现在又almost vegetable 哈哈哈 但是 但是 还没有足够的 这些问题都可以提 但是不要把Reich仁慈啊 同理啊那种就是有好多概念 甚至还会讨论 就是人类灭绝的话 有的话他对傣文系的那么看重 嗯 那你达文西德 已经到这非人类的位置了 你还来讨论 对你的角度我是挺同意的 就说就哪些是问题 哪些讨论问题的基础 对至少在特定问题上 这一定还是要明确 对对 其实说起来呢 呃这个敏感并不是天然 是个坏事 但是呢后来他就over了 哎对 就是就是这样对 就现在不讲政治正确啊什么什么这些 就弄得现代人在一方面 敏感性就特别的强 对但是呢 他对生活的敏感性降低了 它的敏感性不是用来应对这个世界 它是用来区分观念 这就是人的那种互相交流越来越困难 我们要站着等一会这种 一上楼梯 嗯那淋雨就要走的很慢很慢啊对 嗯 那时候就四个季节我 在上面都去过 啊那我是真没有 那个 82年89年那个时候是可以滑雪的 后来就是像这种地方 你可以看出气候变暖的啊 这个症状非常非常好 啊 啊对 嗯 好谢谢 现在不是有个说法 就前几个礼拜是人类历史上最热的 是是是 会不会到多少年以后 我们经历的那整个90年代 嗯是人类历史上最好的 这个十年 对真的吗 真的有可能的 真的就是有可能 是吧你想这二战完了之后 对啊人类经历了这么大的创伤 对痛定思痛 对然后这些文明人的反思对 不可思议的 这边断断续续就是贝尔根大学了 他们的大学就是一开始有那么两座楼 然后有了钱之后又买一座 买一座就这么散散落落的 嗯 啊哈哎呦呦呦 come up OK OK 那个老师送他太太到火车站 然后就到我们旅馆去了 哦哦然后 呃旅馆没碰到 我们就打电话过来了 然后他过来 哈哈哈哈哈 哎呀 哈哈哈哈 yeah we made it many years yeah very good very good six year 34 years and then actually i planned to come to osro 2010 then i canceled that he had all the documents ready yes but we didn’t expect that it would last three years if you had a calm have stayed here in Bergen for the three years no that would be great i could be blamed consequences let us know if you feel tired no no no no i’m in good shape actually this is where we had our office but now it’s expanded that’s a problem because each institute has its own building and you do not get that interdisciplinarity but everybody thinks it should be so big because it’s good particularly in China we like everything bigger bigger everywhere everywhere everywhere the United States set the better example yes exactly exactly i mean this was a small university people went on their doors and knocked on it and said you are not reflective and you do not know what you are doing but now we let everybody do what they did i did it very well professionally in always but i miss that kind of informal yeah tough discussions actually habamas article appears for negotiation so he was criticized across the western world i think he has some good points and what he is saying is just empirically empirically true i mean if you give weapons a support one part then you are also coarsely doing something with what’s going on in the battlefield and do not take the responsibility for what you are doing i think that’s what he’s saying i mean Aristotle said you should justice is the treat equal cases equally yeah so you should look at what has happened and what’s happening then you are active in some the various ways of being that i mean sure no i think it’s not a good discussion oh very good i’ll go for this one this going for the thank you thank you i have brand fresh longjing tea for you okay we went together to longjing village it was in 91 we the family of four lived in the space of 12 square meters i used to tell them and it wasn’t allowed to heat because it was south of Yangtze river yes of course foreigners who were very well treated by providing the softest oh yes no it was quite an experience yeah quite an experience and you visited eastern European countries even earlier 65 60 Eli spet and i went to Leningrad and in Moscow and it was in an arrangement by yeah organization for peace and friendship me redrushba and it was interesting but you were followed by no but i don’t know i don’t know but we haven’t have any ideas you see my first trip to China ninety one and then there was a law change in Norway whereby you were allowed to see the map as we said the map is an investigation done by Norwegian secret service and my map started at 65 and went to 91 okay and it was just bullshit i mean things like i read dostoyevsky and things like that and Marx yeah sure i mean i like litters and i read all kinds of political theory i mean it could just have read what i’m doing but what king did ever did but again good things to go along with i meant well with a communist and also with someone right i mean as a teacher i mean you get all kinds of persons and you should have to talk with everybody well things might change yeah actually we were talking about the 1990s when Zhangyun and i were both actively involved international academic exchange maybe that is the best decade in the whole history human history yes yes i see what you want European integration organization also at that time there was a willingness to solve problems in the civilized way with the institution so even if it’s hard that we could solve it that kind of thing it start to be possible to have collective action the international lab yes yes exactly across political blogs but suddenly it changed we witness this kind of dramatic change but anyhow for all topics in order to know what you know you should know what you do not know how could you say i know that so and so complicated issue but i do not want to listen to the counterarguments but how could you don’t know if you do not know the reasonable counterarguments i think there are a learning process and that different learning process again i mean some are very instrumental i mean i know especially some history but is a Japanese samurai when they met gunpower they had to learn there are that kind of learning processes but then are also more cultural and reflexive one i think it’s amazing that i mean that was the impression i had when i met you and other young people you were getting broader to learn because you wanted to go back to do something good for the country yeah relatively speaking it’s easier for people on our generation to learn from the outside world in a way we know how bad it could be yeah exactly beautiful way at pedrance the powers and that’s also here i mean because your case i mean it’s extreme but also in my i mean nobody used to be relatively poor i recalled when i came to the United States in 66 then i stayed with a family and that family had ice cream one liter ice cream in the reach right there and i thought what kind of luxury well time passes and i mean things have changed tremendously yeah yeah our kids are somehow used to see China as relatively better of everything yes yes sure so they don’t have kind of urge to live from outside the world and the outside world has become also more divided problematic yeah well i’m not sure but i don’t think that the most important reason one thing is that maybe i am accelerating correctly but that the Chinese that i met were both proud of the background that they are open to change and to learn from other people that are proud of the background do not stop them to learn anything tomasel that that’s the very start with tomaselo saying that it’s not instrumental rationality that made humans different from the Japanese but there communicated communication whereby they could hunt down big animals so the communication is actually what makes us humans and then should we also introduce another distinction there must have a standard by which you can judge what kind of communication learning process is successful which is not exactly yeah i think there might be kind of continuity between human society and uh pre human evolution in the pre human evolution there is try and error yes yes yes try and error is a typical process of learning right can we also apply this try and error to the learning process of a human world i mean with the development of human world some ideas or beliefs will achieve evolutionary advantages and some others will finally vanish yes yes very much married a little bit bought or even objection you know are you are talking about continuity yes i mean of you yes pretty human human but there is a difference one way you define which learning profit is successful we have a standard which is you know this kind of the thesis makes it survival yes but can we apply the same vengeance to human history human beings what survives may not be what we like the best survival of the fittest probably is the worst kind of you know think about it in a sense social divinism has a revive it’s a zero sum game all these things actually it goes too many directions for example when we talk about the band the band is echoed what’s the parade the parade is in the product of evolution when we talk about epidemiology we talk about moral evolution or things from all along the frame direction and can ai work human being for preparation for ai all this kind of thinking i think they have the same direction which i really thought he is a pessimist no it’s not i might be a problem what i’m talking about is no i don’t talk about it in the pessimistic part of a view in the way i’m a nichen optimistic okay okay i think for a lot of first the first question and the last question is who am i what is the human being what the perspective people these days are talking about emergence even human beings itself is kind of a result of emergence no i think probably ai systems will have a certain type of human consciousness in the future but their consciousness will be like an artist i may be on your side i’m very curious about that it’s a deep chance but but i do not want to give up the difference the essential difference between a fallible bio social human beings and the robot but how that should be is other what should be done with it i mean in the face of artificially i don’t know i think people should be so much of career but which one yeah okay 陈佳音哎 转过来 哈哈哈 陈家印 你慢点 保护好腰 一点事都没有 好漂亮 全部由中央电影局主持 哎你好 你帮帮我看看这新闻 啥冬天 这是一个 就这个写信的一个作者 就是他对这个哲学研究 那个期刊上的一些文章 可能有点意见 就是他觉得那东西 就是不符合他对哲学的那个想法 但他那个想法就是哲学研究上的文章 我看看他 但他不但他对 不是您这篇文章应当也是 这是停摊嘛 好建议 直接就平摊 好好的 跟那块就跟我摆脸子 你说话不搭理 恨不得要跟我吵架是吧 对 从这进 这是50号啊哎 我怎么有点 门好像在后面的啊 这对 这车不是他的车 不是啊不是啊 你要把美国这么走进来 已经被削他了已经 哈哈哈 对就那头那个 啊 我们在美国的时候还真就碰上一次啊 这个也是在山上看着一个六好开车 然后就把那车要倒进一个院子里 马上端着枪就出来了 guina come on come on come on come if you want to have something to drink it’s here and there are some cookies some apple juice and you just serve yourself okay thank you okay to follow a point we have mentioned yesterday i had also a feeling that in a modern society the communication is actually so much easier because of various kinds of technology but i think that with a lot of people they talk too much but do not want to listen to each other it seems now people are very critical which is terrible misunderstanding all criticism i mean what is more than rationality first you have science i mean you have physics you have chemistry you have physiology you have anatomy i mean there are things in the sciences that we know very very well no question about it but then you have the humanities and i think it’s very important in the Germanic languages we talk about recent shops which is much wider in Chinese we have a current wider term term is broader than some so i mean first of all you have to take into consideration not only some natural sciences but all not only physics but also Darwin yeah and freud and Marx and pablomas so there will not be one only answer then if you say my point is a right one then you have to argue for that yeah one has to recognize also that other people have their points that might be equally well founded you have to take that into consideration and your validity claims will be have to be adapted accordingly so i think it should be critique not criticism as throwing away but critique theoretical and practical reason which means improvement improvement in the sense that you understand more of what you think and how you think about it yes it gives you honestness with definitions preciseness and interpretations etc these are i mean really basic issues but but not everything is good enough do you think the spreading of culture of debating culture of argumentation has something to do with it i mean of course social cultural moments on the basis of challenging pre given ideas of beliefs but now it goes too far for example the issue of sex and gender i was told that on how people can identify themselves as one of more than dozens of gender identities i mean the kind of this kind of culture is like the question of why should be applied to everything without any exception but in real life you need to start from something you need to take something as pregiven or as something defining who you are if something at this level can be easily challenged with the question mark or with the question why are we ready should we have a second thought or should we have a critical attitude towards the critical attitude itself of course we should there is the difference supposedly in the past a whole community may have the same principalization for example the Christians you know they don’t ask for why for many measures but nowadays i mean it’s really hard to say i have an app prep supportation you have yours then i can ask why you have your prep supportation and in the same way you can’t ask a part of mine but i guess gwyness respond would be like that the point is not you ask why to other people the point is you should ask why to ourselves but of those happens i think that’s exactly what i want to bring about yeah i mean of course people are of different opinions but then now i think that each opinion goes to the extreme so that so you don’t have different opinions here just have two positions no four and against and then there is no different interlined let me talk about China a little bit my person that over the last few years people have become more key on the issues which are quite remote from your real life like the pro Trump or anti Trump oh yeah me yeah even alumni classmates can fight each other actually they are friends break up for that i mean for each issue you may break with some of your friends and after a few issues you have no friend at all it seems to me that same thing happens in the United States and there is no metal ground well let me go one step further because it’s very much a question today it seems to me underlying what we are talking about now what is identity i mean people’s views are related to self identifications very often its gender ethnicity or religion yes but if you look at the modern society how is the modern society it’s science based not only natural sciences all kinds of science not only that we should take them into count but very many jobs are defended and then you need institutions because you can’t do it alone so there are institutions inherent identities what should be added to this is that when you look at how we are living in modern societies we are parents we are scholars we are doctors we are patients if you are in a modern society and if you are more than in a modern society you have lots of identities more and less gradual going in and out of them all the time i mean it’s partly epistemic but it’s partly also role related and partly institutional and that’s my point these things can’t be separated so the very idea that you in a modern society has basically one identity and you should react to everything based on that be it religion or ethnicity i mean that if that person really thinks that well that person hasn’t really adapted to modern society then how you should treat it well differently in different cases according to different persons but plurality of perspectives is always a very important thing one has to reflect upon one presuppositions and limitations but i think it’s far too crude and far too simplistic the way it goes today i mean it doesn’t matter what you think about the wonders universe whether it has a meaning or not in the transcendental sense when you are a brain surgeon what matters is that you can do the operation on the patient can we get something to take a break and take something to drink yes i attempt to talk too much money it’s quite okay i mean i came here to hear i really appreciate the way you you go straight on problems so that might be difficult problems in China i just don’t know how people really think because there is also a generation gap did you expect these changes were surprised i couldn’t imagine that it should be so bad with this post truth and Trump and all that i i yeah i grew up during the i was a child during the occupation and there is something very deep in me as to that this is a a marvelous place but a dangerous place that’s more emotional deep in me also i was very skeptical to the idealistic spirit after the fall of the ball i mean i felt it was very naive to think that everything would be and problematic in that sense i was not surprised but i that it took the way it did take that was i didn’t have the fantasy or i mean who had that how about you do you worry about the future of humankind uh i i i would rather address this kind of question as what we are going to do yeah i mean that next question yes so we can understand the karmax system and mark what matters is to change the world i think now as an intellectuals our major effort is to change the world by interpreting what is happening i think that’s the real challenge but talking about incorporating the world and i mean i don’t know man i don’t think it’s a precise description of what Philadelphia thought we first of all changes take place without uh yeah without philosophers without of course and you know i i think that while you talk about intellectual efforts you know it thoughtful intellectual efforts would be just try to maintain some kind of middle ground for the people of different positions could still talk about the issues in a rational or fami rational way i think that’s the politician of opinions partly the course partly the effect of the disappearance of intellectual discussions more or less the intellectual discussion functions as kind of building up a platform where different opinions may communicate yeah right right right and compared with as i say forty years ago or fifteen years ago i think the fitted is indeed different we don’t have a strong platform where different opinions may meet and try to persuade each other i don’t know in Europe maybe the intellectuals can still make some more efforts to repeal to this platform but let me ask you where do these discussions take place that was something about the university before it became so how she say economicalized i mean in all right is still 70 percent paid by the state but the tendency is definitely that more and more goes in the direction of being how she say market adapted so one thing to follow your point is what could be done with the universities i mean to which extent scholars get together and listen to each other and then produce results and that you go fast and produce things that will sell et cetera where are the the fool for those things i mean yeah i had the feeling that maybe it was an illusion but in the 60s and 70s i had the feeling that should they say the intellectual epistemic debate was taken more seriously for instance criticism of the Vietnam war the whole situation was much more bad but it looked as if things could be improved and then i have a little bit different concern i feel that there are two sides of this kind of discourse on the one hand we talk about whether it’s true or not on this intellectual level yeah yeah it’s the truth of the idea on the other hand there is the impact on reality of the idea yeah i mean in different places you know it has different impacts yeah for example the idea of multiple modernities for person in the west is a way to overcome Euro centuries is a way to be humble you know towards non European culture on Nations but it can also be used as a kind of excuse not to learn from others like even people like heidigger criticize you know western modernizer exactly right why don’t you learn from had to go by being self criticism right i see that yeah so shall we come back a little bit it seems that nowadays people become more key on empathizing the importance of their own feelings i have this opinion i insist on it and i don’t have to give any reason for it that makes all of the intellectual reflection kind of useless yeah i think so but i would say you have at least to distinguish between what you feel and physical feelings like when i get a stone in my stomach it’s painful but if you feel very brave you feel very intelligent that might be wrong yeah i mean when it comes to personal feelings my first point is that are some basic things i mean self reference of questions for instance if you say everything is basically power everything is determined by class or by gender that’s a self kind of a self refuting yeah that’s self refuting so you can and then if you say that the number seven is very heavy heavy to learn yeah but dukun say it’s more than twenty tons i mean because it it’s not that it’s empirically wrong it’s an absurdity because that concert can’t take that kind of seas yeah then you have another case that people say i’m born like a certain search but i do not feel like it and i am what i feel and if you take that wide enough you say well i’m i’m born white but i feel very much black so i i’m black there is also kind of common concept that what people are feeling is what you should respect well yeah well but i mean feelings might be i mean let’s think about what is a human being it’s not only about being where we are but it’s also about how do we get there so you have to smoothen down the strong preceptual claims and be very much aware of well let me just say that history is also it matters they are mocked这是老的格文了 German is your first foreign language isn’t it you should see them these ladies yeah this is kind of a renaissance global faith you see it there you have the book and love got two kids all right truth truth is naked yeah the naked truth so this is actually Catholic because you don’t see Maria no no but you see i mean here we didn’t care so much about it you took it a bit more relaxed sure i mean the building is 900 years from Catholic time when Luther took over he could destroy all these nice figures but here in norway’s audience he felt that some of the old belief was adapted by Catholicism too you know for instance the word Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday these names are Nordic gods their pagan gods and the Catholic church accepted i mean it does change people’s mentality this is a very special place underneath it was the state bureaucracy they wrote the law in 1274 and the lord they made remain for hundreds of years and was widely spread and well all of it it changed norwegians deeply for instance when you say thank god we say thank and lord talk takolov takolov so law was seen as very and there is a saying it’s still in the old Norwegian midlogum Skalambig and i give me logomba that means you should build the country with law and not destroy it with earn law okay so that’s deeply routed here so the Vikings were strange people i mean they were strange people maybe that’s because Viking especially on such a large fleet you have to have order you have to have it’s a good point i think in those i’m not historian but if i should explain yes you have to organize a lot of things to go from here to North America and to Greenland and to survive the winter in Greenland so state organization law giving law making law following assemblies with the king and then gathering of people here all these matters so this museum is now on the list of the unesco yes that is right and this is one of the most proudest part of our exhibition brigan museum has the biggest collection of rhinic sticks in the world we have business letters and then here we have poets and then we here have love letters and what they said one another honorary people’s life yes and what’s so unique with this exhibition is that all the things we’re telling you about the everyday life of people in Bergen not the kings and the Queens that we knew of but and that tells so much about the development of Bergen and how it went from the Vikings era to actually becoming a state society and it’s this development that we’re going to have a look at so i’m going to show you these these are replicas of the sticks that we have so you will be able to see what they have looked like this one is translated to gida says you have to go home you should go home yes gida says you have to go home interesting so you can just understand that humanity hasn’t changed that much over the last four years it is some resemblance still today yes you can say that you can it lies i love you i love you do you have any cab how the wall will end i had some some understanding of the of the Russians to start with but i did not i did not imagine that he would go in for an occupation because i thought it would be unwise i’m not specialist on it but the Russians must have been badly informed you know i watched the whole of the tv drama the people’s servant chernshi came to power because the whole team wanted to save money of promoting they said that it’s a good idea for us to register in the election in the name of the people’s servant party they did not expect that they can win i mean it’s a kind of realistic drama many social problems in the society actually were reflected in the drama first of all corruption second of all all the people want to live the country to join eu but to some degree Russians saved the Ukraine nation because they have so serious problems nowadays all the parties are stored behind they have a really defined assassination against the Russians yeah yeah i am i think the same thing happens to individuals too i mean the future moments makes us more clear about who we are you know during the killerman prices there was a critical moment when the technical system went wrong yeah i know yeah the soviet yeah you know officer had a good point make a decision in the submarine yeah yeah he couldn’t receive any order upon court of machine and he had to let it be fit in back himself whether to pass it’s amazing that at this stage it was the person who took responsibility and used his own judgment that’s exactly what makes us human beings last evening we had a dinner here oh really yeah it was not like that before so you guys go ahead and i’ll stood for a while and catch up okay okay you need to sit a little bit yeah我的腿突然不行了 i’m still thinking about the earlier discussion you know during the Napoleon war norwegians were starring because the British wouldn’t allow to get food from the continent that is a great poem of Henrik ibsen or person who was rowing to Denmark to get some food for his wife and child when he came back that was a British commander of a ship who took him and brought him to jail and when he came back his wife and child died and this is a true story then one day with stormy weather there is another British ship coming needing people to help him and then the ship the person from the ship is old ship is there that he has a small child and then he says no i won’t but if it hadn’t been for the small child i would have thank the whole ship at that time he figured out what he values most and found his true self yes but it’s a very demanding sure sure for ordinary people it’s extremely infricant to encounter life and that situation i agree what does it mean to be a human being and to be oneself i think is very much related to what you do with your life and your family and your friends i had contacts with people both in Ukraine and in Russia it started earlier we still have it i sent Christmas greetings to my friends in both countries those who are living in San Fettusburg i am very happy to get them not many people from west do does that yeah i do i do i do sure this is the magic bay of Yord totally untouched by the northern people where i go when i want peace and silence the presence of nothing presence of nothing is a perfect philosopher it is but i have to say that for many people they cannot but feel themselves to be lonely to be isolated oh really that was true that’s why people in modern times can easily feel in kind of a priceless situation okay the conference begins